I've never had any interaction with him. I remember when I was growing up before cable TV and all that where in Ohio we'd get some UCLA games that like come on at midnight. And after a high school game we'd come back, we knew they were gonna be on and we'd watch them play. When you were growing up, UCLA was always the villain because they won all the time -- sorta like the Boston Celtics were the villains. But then when you get older and you appreciate what it takes to be successful, then you start to admire those people and what they've done. I can only go on what people have said that have worked with him, played for him and coached with him and it's just how quality of a person he was. He was just as impactful with individuals off the floor as he was on the floor. But I don't think there's any question -- I think I was listening to one of the interviews today -- that people underestimate how competitive he was. Just because he wasn't necessarily a yeller, a screamer and a cusser doesn't mean that he wasn't competitive. I think he had a way to challenge those guys.