2011 WNBA Awards (Part 2): Balancing Potential & Productivity For The All-Rookie Team
According to Jessica Lantz, a reporter asked Tulsa Shock rookie center Liz Cambage how she would grade herself on her rookie season.
Apparently, Cambage gave herself an "A", but the buzz among some media members was in the "C-" range. That's quite a big difference in opinion and partially reflects that the 20-year-old rookie has had an up and down season, to say the very least.
She's gone from a highly touted draft prospect to the second pick in the 2011 WNBA Draft to an injury-replacement All-Star but also through a coaching change, some minor wear and tear, and barely getting off the bench at times in the second half of the season.
In the relatively short time I've been following the WNBA closely, I've never seen a rookie have quite that type of first season. In fact, given the All-Star selection - regardless of whether you believe it was justified - I can say with some certainty that I can't remember a NBA or WNBA rookie experiencing quite this type of roller coaster rookie season.
So how might we go about grading Cambage fairly? And, to a related point, is she worthy of an All-Rookie team selection?
The Rookie Ranking framework
As first year players trying to find a role on their team, it's hard for even the best of the best to put up consistent numbers. And ideally, they would be positively inconsistent - one would hope that a player just coming out of college would improve as the season progresses and they acclimate themselves to the league.
The part of the rookie ranking framework used for these rankings designed to account for that natural development is a player's valuable contributions ratio (VCR), essentially the percentage of a team's production that a player accounts for when on the floor. It's a pretty good estimate of not only how productive a player has been in their minutes played, but also how many productive minutes they could potentially play.
However, whereas I looked at positive and negative changes in VCR during the season, I'm going to do something different with the season over now.
VCR, playing styles and player potential
Similar to the way I looked at WNBA free agents in the off-season, VCR is particularly good at determining whether a player is capable of being more productive in more minutes or giving a team more "quality minutes":
- A player with an average VCR probably gave their team as many quality minutes as they're capable of.
- A player with an above average VCR could probably give their team more quality minutes than they played.
- A player with a below average VCR should probably have played less minutes.
In other words, VCR gives us a way to project players as starters, rotation players, and bench warmers, which further helps us define their performance value in terms of how many quality minutes they're capable of playing. A high VCR does not suggest a player is a superstar like other metrics - it's an indicator of how productive a player was in the minutes they played.
Obviously, one number doesn't mean a player's fate is set in stone: players can improve from season-to-season and defy what their VCR suggests (e.g. Ashley Robinson and Kia Vaughn) or decline normally due to age. Rookies have proven even more volatile in the last few years for a variety of reasons.
In addition to looking at VCR relative to league average (.76) is helpful, another way to help get a more accurate picture of a player's potential is to look specifically at their VCR relative to the average of others with a similar playing style (also explained in that free agency post).
So VCR is great for rookies - especially those in roller coaster situations like Cambage - because it tells us how much room there is for growth relative to their style of play instead of people's overblown expectations. And what Cambage's numbers suggest is that there's plenty of room for growth.
| Player/Team | Mins/g | VCR | Style | Usage rate | TS% | 2-point% | Value added | Assist ratio |
| Maya Moore | 28.0 | 1.15 | S | 21.60% | 54.86% | 48.84% | 0.56 | 16.38% |
| Danielle Robinson | 23.1 | 1.06 | D | 18.43% | 55.13% | 46.22% | 1.27 | 29.60% |
| Danielle Adams | 20.9 | 1.19 | S | 27.72% | 54.73% | 49.23% | -2.72 | 4.31% |
| Liz Cambage | 20.0 | 1.72 | I | 27.89% | 58.63% | 52.14% | -1.69 | 4.04% |
| Jantel Lavender | 14.8 | 1.04 | SI | 22.28% | 53.23% | 50% | -0.75 | 6.07% |
| Kayla Pedersen | 23.76 | 1.13 | U | 15.40 | 50.50% | 44.27% | 0.49 | 17.97% |
| Danielle McCray | 15.1 | 0.84 | SP | 19.24 | 52.81% | 40.69% | -1.11 | 15.88% |
| Courtney Vandersloot | 22.9 | 0.61 | D | 19.10% | 46.67% | 42.58% | -1.53 | 27.93% |
| Jeanette Pohlen | 15.9 | 0.69 | P | 11.23% | 63.53% | 47.5% | 0.11 | 20.29% |
| Jenna O'Hea | 16.4 | 0.75 | P | 13.98% | 59.04% | 42.00% | -0.19 | 20.90% |
| Jasmine Thomas | 19.3 | 0.68 | S | 21.60 | 42.43% | 37.19% | -2.50 | 17.02% |
| Carlyn Swords | 7.5 | 1.13 | I | 16.50 | 60.57% | 52.83% | 0.43 | 10.16% |
Stats for 2011 WNBA rookies.
So the first thing you'll notice is that there were only seven rookies above the league average VCR (0.76). That narrows the field for the All-Rookie team really fast, though I personally believe some of those who didn't perform well do have quite a bit of potential due to other indicators.
All-Rookie Team
Maya Moore, F, Minnesota Lynx (Rookie of the Year): So why is Moore the Rookie of the Year (as described yesterday)? First, Moore is the only player who was consistently productive in starter's minutes. That alone is noteworthy compared to the rest of the group. Second, Moore has shown the ability to get herself shots, even if she relies heavily on jumpers and has an extremely low free throw production rate as a result. But third, she's one of four of the above rookies who's improving and given where she already is that's a plus.
Danielle Robinson, G, San Antonio Silver Stars: Robinson is another player who's improving as she dropped 36 points and 6 assists in a win against the Tulsa Shock to close her season. She saw her minutes steadily increase as she went from reserve to starter. Second, Robinson is the fourth most efficient point guard in the entire WNBA with a pure point rating of 3.56. She's got a bright future ahead of her but the main reason why she's not challenging Moore for ROY more strongly is that Moore was just more consistent as a starter while Robinson was a reserve for most of the season - Robinson still has to prove that she can continue to perform in a bigger role. But Robinson is one of the best rookie point guards to enter the league in the last four years.
Danielle Adams, F, San Antonio Silver Stars: Even though Adams missed 11 games, most of her competition for the All-Rookie team wasn't even productive enough in near-full seasons to make up the gap. She's been so dynamic that you can't leave her off a list of top rookies, even if it was mostly in the first half of the season (see the month by month breakdown at WNBA.com). She's one of the most well rounded rookies as an inside-outside threat. The question is whether defenses will "catch up" to her next year and limit more of her scoring opportunities, many of which come from taking set shots.
Liz Cambage, C, Tulsa Shock: Perhaps Cambage's season was a disappointment to some people, like the ones Ms. Lantz encountered. But the fact that she has the highest VCR of any rookie this season speaks volumes about her potential (click here for an explanation). Who are the players in the WNBA with higher VCRs: Sylvia Fowles and Candace Parker.
Let's be clear though: Cambage is extremely efficient in inconsistent minutes this season, so that number is probably likely to decline and not indicative of Cambage being on par with Fowles and Parker. Nevertheless, the harsh criticism of her game at this point has to be more about not meeting people's lofty expectations than anything she's done on the court.
Despite coaching changes, getting dinged up a bit during the season, and erratic minutes Cambage had moments of dominance that most rookies can't claim - a season-high 24 points against the Storm in KeyArena was among her best games, but there were also games against the Los Angeles Sparks and Phoenix Mercury in which she was more impressive in spurts than some rookies can ever hope to be. When she got minutes and her teammates got her the ball she showed what a threat she can be in the paint. Most important, at 6'8" her ability to free throw line at one of the highest rates in the league and hit nearly 80% of them is a sign that she'll be able to find points when defenses are able to contain her.
Although she struggled to finish around the basket early in the season, she shot 67.6% in her final 5 games and scored in double figures in 4 of her last 6. And what people forget: she's only 20, which is extremely young for the WNBA due to its eligibility rules. At 6'8", she's an imposing presence in a zone defense and is sure to improve defensively as well as on the boards as she adjusts to the U.S. game and continues to mature.
In a more stable situation, her performance suggests that a C- grade is probably on the unreasonable side - statistically, everything about Cambage screams productive rotation player and future starter. If you're not grading against pre-season expectations and instead on what she actually did, a "B" (with encouraging comments) is more reasonable.
Jantel Lavender, C, Los Angeles Sparks: As a Michigan alum, trust me - putting an Ohio State grad here was tough. But she's one of those four rookies who improved over the course of the season while putting up an above average VCR and that makes her the choice here. She went from irrelevant to this conversation early on to among the most productive. The combination of Lavender's limited minutes and VCR suggest that she has a career ahead as a solid rotation player and expanding her repertoire of post moves - as any post player might wish to do - would help in becoming a consistent scoring threat, but right now her size and strength have made her a solid contributor in spurts.
Honorable mention:
- Kayla Pedersen, F, Tulsa Shock: Most people know that I've loved Pedersen's game since watching her in college. But her minutes dwindled to near-nothing by the end of the season, which makes it hard to put her on an All-Rookie team although her VCR still suggests a productive career. But that "U" next to her name means "utility player", which means that Pedersen is the type of player who won't put up a lot of points but is someone who could thrive by doing all the little things to help a team win if she's surrounded by talent. Early in the season, she was starting and - along with Cambage - literally carrying a losing team. It didn't really help either player. And neither can contribute while getting injured or sitting on the bench.
- Courtney Vandersloot, G, Chicago Sky: At this point on that list above, it's not about ranking but tiers - everyone after McCray has work to do to become a consistent rotation contributor. But what's noticeable about 'Sloot is her assist ratio - she can make plays and has outstanding instincts. She just needs to bring her turnover ratio down - second highest among rotation point guards at 20.23% - which is a correctable problem. Part of that problem is strength and part of it is adjusting to the speed of the pro game. It's not impossible or even unlikely. But given her sharp decline after the All-Star game, it's tough to put her on the All-Rookie team, even as much as I enjoyed watching her at Gonzaga.
- Danielle McCray, G/F, Connecticut Sun: McCray has established herself as a three point shooter on a playoff team, but she has been inconsistent as a starter, shooting only 25.9% from beyond the arc in 13 games in August.
- Jeanette Pohlen, Indiana Fever & Jenna O'Hea, Los Angeles Sparks: I'm not pairing these two because they're the same, but because they have the same challenge moving forward: extremely low usage rates that Ken Pomeroy would call "nearly invisible". Both are such strong passers and shooters that they'll find a spot on rosters. But when your usage rate is at "nearly invisible" it also means "easily replaceable". Pohlen gets a slight edge for me because her 2-point percentage is better, which means she can do a bit more as a scorer.
- Jasmine Thomas, G, Washington Mystics: I know some people consider her a strong candidate for the All-Rookie team and the reason I have her outside the top 5 is not that she's on a bad team. The challenge for Thomas is that she plays as a low-efficiency 5'9" scorer. But she's currently playing point guard and has a below average assist ratio for a point guard. Just to put it in perspective: against the Silver Stars in her final game, she had no assists and didn't even have one potential assist in 30 minutes of playing time. Her statistical profile isn't particularly strong for her style of play and size.
- Carolyn Swords, C, Chicago Sky: I just have to mention Swords - I'd love to see what she could do in more minutes. She started for the last four games and was probably even more productive than her VCR suggested she would be, shooting 70.6% and showing impressive ability as a passer in high-low sets with Sylvia Fowles.
Related links:
2011 WNBA Awards (Part 1): MVP, All-WNBA, Rookie of the Year, Sixth Woman, Most Improved Player
2011 WNBA Rookie Rankings: Maya Moore Rises To #1 In Top Ten After Two Months
WNBA Rookie Rankings: The Top Ten After One Month
2011 WNBA Rookie Ranking Preview: Seven Players To Keep An Eye On
Swish Appeal Statistics Glossary
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Comments
I should have probably moved the DRob discussion over here

Like a knife through butter.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 13, 2011 6:23 PM EDT reply actions
"I should have probably moved the DRob discussion over here"
(Great suggestion…)
“What I think we’re starting to see now is a fusion of high usage scorer OU DRob and high efficiency distributor SASS DRob”
I know. It makes me giggle with fiendish glee just to think about it.
I agree that she’s not going to blow huge holes in really really good D, and there are definitely teams that have really really good D. But as a 1v1 matchup she’s still going to cause headaches to teams, and Tulsa’s not the only team she’d be able to blow up like that…if she’s allowed.
What I’m saying about holding herself back…the point is that we can see that DRob has the speed and ability to bust defenses, and that’s what she’d been doing at OU. And she may actually have the green light to call her own number on occasion, however, she is indeed deferring to the veteran players. Sure it’s smart to give Hammon the ball—she’s Becky Freakin’ Hammon!—but I’d also say on occasion when SASS has been in a slump and the structure broke down a bit, it would have also been smart for DRob to take initiative and blow the game open herself. OU DRob did that when her team needed her, because she knew as a leader on her team it was her call to do that. Rookie WNBA DRob doesn’t think it’s her place to do that…
…yet.
(Link for full comment thread)
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
If the Us media
were less parochial they would perhaps look a little deeper at the season that Liz has had. Do you honestly believe that what happened in Tulsa was Lizzies fault. If you put her comment in context (which you should have) she said she gave herself an A for getting through what had gone on at Tulsa. Personally i think that the chaos that was Tulsa Shock damaged the WNBA brand and admin should have stepped in. Edwards has also done plenty to put the C in the minds of the media and she should be ashamed of herself. I feel very sorry for Liz seriously if she is so bad can you explain to me why her she has scored 2 points less than Maya in 10 mins less after Edwards spent time manipulating her numbers at the end of the season. As Justine has said before – why the aggro – what did you expect from a 19 year old in a terrible situation> i would like to know should she have had a 20 and 10 season? Lets face it most coached would tell you that they only needed to guard her in the team and they could double and triple team its not like they had to worry about anyone hitting a three – beat her up every game, hack her and no one did anything. And you guys then say she should have been better should she have smiled more while it was happening? should she have thanked the refs when they gave her nothing? She is animated and involved and her frustration is part of her wanting to be the best she can. WOW I am so happy that I got to see her play and I just hope she comes back because this league needs great kids in it.
I would pay good money to watch Almost There take on that press room full of Tulsa coaches & media in a verbal battle
And I would bring popcorn.
It would be epic (for you Sci-Fi nerds I’m totally picturing River Tam vs. the Reavers level epic).
Someone please make it happen.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 13, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks Shannon - I am up for it!
As I so disgusted with the Tulsa gamble.
by Almost there on Sep 13, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
"Edwards has also done plenty to put the C in the minds of the media and she should be ashamed of herself."
Here’s my question: what kind of person could watch her play basketball, look at her numbers, take her age and situation into account and then simply be swayed by what a coach says?
I’d wonder how much that person even knows about basketball.
And I’m not convinced that anyone outside the Tulsa media room shares these views anyway – I would hope the people who she’s dropped double-doubles on or 20+ points probably hold a different opinion.
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
And that's not to disagree with what you said...
It’s just a damn shame.
Media who don’t even make an attempt to understand the game – even if they’re wrong, as everyone is from time to time – end up doing a disservice to the players who play it.
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
yes I agree her whole season was a damn shame
Would a lesser kid have survived it?
by Almost there on Sep 13, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
"And I’m not convinced that anyone outside the Tulsa media room shares these views anyway..."
Everyone I talk basketball with, regardless of what team they are primarily a fan of, thinks Lizzie is going to be a star in the WNBA. And everyone makes the point that she’s really just the age of a college sophomore. Seriously, if I had to choose a 6’8" player, I’m personally taking Lizzie over similarly aged Brittney Griner.
There’s clearly a toxic atmosphere with some of the Tulsa media. Their comments on Twitter have been absolutely poisonous. It’s very high school—like it’s cool to make fun of the team. “Oh look we have our own pro team to bash! Isn’t this wonderful!” Also, they’ve admitted on Twitter that they…don’t always actually go watch the games?
I think if you move away what’s being said by people in Tulsa, and you go out into the rest of the basketball world, there’s a lot of positive out there about Lizzie.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 13, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate
I am pretty sure every coach in the league would like to thank Edwards for playing Jackson in the post so Liz had to fight her own player to get low. Seriously I have never seen anything more ridiculous in my life. I am glad she stood up and finished strong and showed that if given a chance she can change games. I saw her do that at least 10 times during the season. Go Lizzie
by Almost there on Sep 13, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing that can't be overlooked and which probably is responsible
for most if not all of the negative reaction to Liz is that she didn’t want to do the pushy pushy dance on a consistent basis. If you are 6’8" and not light on your feet, the place for you is by the basket. However, in basketball in the age of the WNBA, an offensive playing wanting to stand near the basket has to be willing to do the pushy pushy dance. Your hip into my butt, my butt into your hip. your hip into my hip, my hip into your hip, your crotch into my butt, my butt into your crotch. And so forth and so on. And when she’s not doing it, people look at her as not playing as she should.
And that was the primary basis for me giving her a B
Deciding to be willing to take contact and be more aggressive in that way is all up to Lizzie and is something she can change as soon as she decides to. Every post in the league gets pushed around and hacked and fouled and there are no calls. The difference is that most of the posts grew up playing more that way and so they don’t react to it—they expect it to a large degree.
Part of that adjustment for Lizzie clearly lies with the coaching staff, but most of it is really up to her.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
And about that B...
…I think given that Lizzie basically skipped two grades and still gets a B is pretty impressive. You skip your straight-A students ahead not one but 2 grades and let me know how they do at that next level. ;)
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it bad that
I fantasise about what would have happened if Maya went to Tulsa & Lizzie to Los Lynx?
Not at all.
I totally do.
In fact, I imagine Lizzie and DRob in Minnesota all the time. They were available at 1 and 4…
No knock on Maya at all—I think she’s a fantastic fit for the Lynx—but the alternate universe Lynx would have been fun to watch as well.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW
The C- person also imagines no Lizzie & Kayla, still talks abt getting DRob & D Adams instead. Hmm.
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting DRob would have put some butts in the seats, for sure.
And having a DRob-level point would have helped a lot.
But she and Adams would still be sitting on the bench in alternate universe land, since we don’t like playing rookies in Tulsa. Move along now, nothing to see here.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm more imagining Maya
Suffering in Tulsa . . .
So petty of me! The hype about Moore is not her fault. She’s pretty good. I’ll be even more impressed if she gets over her paint allergy.
Maya is a nice, humble kid
I think the hype reached even more epic levels just because Maya’s no self-promoter, so people who loved her were frothing at the mouth x10000 to say great things about her since she wouldn’t say them herself.
it is worthwhile to note that she IS the all-time leading scorer at UConn, by a lot, and considering that people like Diana Taurasi came out of UConn…well, that’s saying something. There’s a lot of the hype that’s deserved.
Maya is also not on a team where she has to be Super Maya her rookie year. She’s got great players around her so she can take on more of a utility role and have the freedom to adjust and learn without the pressure of needing to score 20+ points a night. She would try to, if that’s what was needed, but it’s not needed in Minny.
My gut tells me that Maya will eventually get over her paint allergy. She’s too competitive to not want to give herself that piece in her arsenal as well. And I also think she’s going to work on developing more of an all-around game than work on becoming a pure scorer (which is all we saw of her at UConn—scoring at will). She’s not going to be exactly Tamika Catchings Jr., but I do think her game will develop to more along the lines of Catchings than Taurasi.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Stupid C person
No one was talking about DA. I heard folks saying they were surprised she was picked at all and that she was not a good fit for the WNBA. Pft!
tt dont forget that
most of the time she had to fight her own team mate first before she could even get to the post lol
by Almost there on Sep 14, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is this all about Cambage?
There are 4 more members of Nate’s All-Rookie Team + 6 Honorable Mentions. And Cambage is NOWHERE in the ROY competition. My question is whether it’s appropriate to put 2 Centers, 2 Forwards, and only 1 Guard on the All-Rookie Team. I was thinking about this and I had Nate’s same top 4. Then I was trying to be conventional and come up with another guard. I couldn’t decide whether to put DRob at point or shooter. Thinking about her assist ratio pur her at point. So, I needed a shooter. Vandersloot came to mind. But looking at the above stats I have to agree with Nate that his 5 are the 5 best 2011 rookies overall. The fact that Adams made the team is impressive given Maya Moore being 1st pick, Cambage 2nd pick, DRob 6th pick and DA 20th pick in the 2011 draft.
"My question is whether it’s appropriate to put 2 Centers, 2 Forwards, and only 1 Guard on the All-Rookie Team."
Of the awards I’ve posted, I agonized over that the most (which is why I delayed posting it).
I suspect ‘Sloot will be fine and in 2 years or so we’ll look back and she’ll be in the top 5 of this class. But that’s a lot of speculation on my part.
Pelton’s WARP has Pohlen and O’Hea as top candidates at guard and Lavender not in his top set, which also makes sense:
http://tracker.stormbasketball.com/?p=2155
I like both, but struggle to put them on the team for the reasons I mentioned.
But really, after that first four, it’s sort of a crap shoot. So my honorable mention bullets are less about a ranking and more about which ones I’m rooting for most.
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
by Nate Parham on Sep 13, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The question about Vandersloot is regarding her athleticism.
I don’t know if you Whalenites know it, but after Minnesota beat Duke in the NCAA tournament in 2004, speedster Lindsay Harding said that she had never played against a player as fast as Whalen. I remember being surprised because looking at Whalen you don’t think of her as being fast as she is built like a prototypical Stanford player. ;) Vandersloot is undersized and her quickness could be an issue.
You really don't watch Stanford much, do you?
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
There are really only a handful of players that have been that build at Stanford.
For every JJ Hones we’ve had more Melanie Murphys and Kate Starbirds.
But I wouldn’t expect you to have noticed that having only seen them play live 3 times. ;) You’ll have to take my word for it, since I’ve seen Stanford play live at least once every year since 1989, watched every televised game since then, and been at all but a handful of home games since 2000.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Your defense of those big-boned ballers
is laudable. :)
Tara Van Derveer “The Setsuko Ishiyama Director of Women’s Basketball”
What the hey?
It's an endowment
Basically, Tara’s salary comes from a permanent endowment. I couldn’t find the initial press release easily, but this is also a nice little article:
https://classof2014.stanford.edu/get/file/g2sdoc/highlights/SU11_Coachships_P7.pdf
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Who you callin' big-boned?


But, seriously, I don’t think Stanford particularly has more than other schools. There are certainly schools with many many more than Stanford.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny because Stanford is a Nike school
And has been…um…pretty much since there have been Nike schools.
But seriously, there’s not a lot of flab on Stanford. They’re one of the fittest teams in the NCAA. If you’re seeing big calves, it’s because you’re looking at Azzi and they’re solid muscle.

by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember Lake Oswego, Oregon's Jillian Harmon having
calves bigger than her face predicted, but when I go looking for a picture I find one showing her playing for New Zealand? Did Harmon pull a Hammon?

Not really.
Her mom is a Kiwi. Jillian is legit.
Also, to your calves comment…not really at all. Compare her to Maya Moore:

by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
"Why is this all about Cambage?"
Because she’s the hardest to measure of the rookies at this point, given the circumstances. And because she’s kind of a Swish Appeal favorite because of Jessica’s coverage. And because I suggested that rating Cambage be a separate post in a game-day thread, and so this post was born.
Or we just did it to be annoying. Whatever you find to be more fun.
Personally, of all the rookies, I’m most likely to go on about DRob, but I do (sort of) try to restrain myself.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
"I’m most likely to go on about DRob, but I do (sort of) try to restrain myself."
I’m sorry – why the interest in exercising restraint? :)
If anything, a post about rookies is the time to go on!
But in a way, the “C- side” of this Cambage “debate” is sort of a straw man, even though it’s not imaginary – it’s a somewhat unreasonable position. It’s still interesting to wonder what she could become though and under what circumstances she might thrive.
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
I'm only exercising restraint because:
1. No one but you and I have really had much to say about DRob this year. For example. no one has jumped into our discussion on the other thread that got moved to this thread. Generally I feel like I’m talking to myself when I talk about DRob. (Not that this is anything new for me—I talk to myself a lot. ;) )
2. If I do a big DRob reply, I need more time (which I haven’t had the last couple of days since this post went up) because I will need to explain my rookie grading scale. I hope to have the time maybe this evening.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Ha - it's all good.
Was totally playing with you.
…that is, if Jessica doesn’t have any objections to touting an OU player so much. :)
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
by Nate Parham on Sep 14, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that's the other thing
I figure Jessica has had enough trauma this season without me taking the other side of the Bedlam fight as well. ;)
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
::kicks rocks::
Fine. Do a “D Rob is amazing” post. She deserves it. Just don’t call her Beep Beep, by gawd.
Stupid Sooners.
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
No one's called DRob Beep Beep the last 4 years...
…so heck if I know why anyone would now!
She is worthy of some kind of speedster nickname though.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I love DRobb
Her display against Tulsa was brilliant but she’s been good all year.
I’ve been impressed by many of this year’s rookies. And not just the Aussies. (Though O’Hea is way better than she’s been given credit for & deserves more minutes.)
The ones listed above are extra impressive because its harder to shine as a rookie with the reduced rosters. I think there are several who were cut who in earlier years could have gone on to better things. If Hammon was trying to make a roster these days . . . Well I hate to think about it.
by JustineL on Sep 14, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jenna O'Hea plays for the Sparks and they are all about putting the fun in disfuncitonal
I mean if Ticha Penichero can’t get off the bench half of the freaking season, no wonder O’Hea got no minutes. :P
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, I am all about putting the typo in my posts. :/
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The Aussie influx into the WNBA has seemed to slow.
The Euros slowed and have now almost died out completely.
Tully Bevilaqua 1998
Penny Taylor 2001
Lauren Jackson 2001
Erin Phillips 2006
-——————————-
Jenna O’Hea 2011
Liz Cambage 2011
"(Though O’Hea is way better than she’s been given credit for & deserves more minutes.)"
This is so, so true…
Her first half was great, actually…
What I think is underrated about her is playmaking ability (that assist ratio) – she is very good for a non-point guard. Great instincts, vision. And I really think that the Sparks were better when she was on the floor because she spread the D and was a low usage player to feed others.
What is it with Aussies going to either dysfunctional places… or Phoenix & Seattle? :)
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
I'll try my best
Especially as I’m about to become one of youse. :-)
People around here
have started using that name. and i heard it on a broadcast too. #justsayin – don’t take Andrea’s name from her…
and btw, she was faster than D Rob in college if you can believe that. she told me she thinks she’s at 80% right now after coming back from the c-section and hopes to be back to 100% after playing in Turkey this year. if she adds that 20%, maybe then y’all will believe me about lil RiRi’s potential! LOL
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
"and btw, she was faster than D Rob in college if you can believe that."
I can’t believe that…homer… ;)
Twitter: @NateP_SBN.
SHE WAS!!
I saw it IRL!! Pinky swear!!!
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Andrea's college stats were impressive.
I can’t recall offhand that I ever actually saw any od the Bedlam series when she and DRob played each other. I’m sure it would have been a game I would have intentionally tuned in to if it was available…
…but I would have been cheering for DRob to blow past that little short chick.
Sorry. I’ve been a semi-closeted OU fan for quite some time.
You’ll have to forgive me. I might also have a Stacey Dales Sky jersey. Just saying.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Will I get in trouble
If I point out that there’s a huge diff between college ball & the WNBA?
Not from me.
I was just saying that sure, I can believe that we’re not seeing Andrea Riley at her best based on what I know of her. That doesn’t mean I expect her 21ppg in college to translate to 21ppg in the WNBA. ;)
Also, since they’re both recently removed from college, it’s not unfair to use college to compare speed between Andrea & DRob. I just don’t recall offhand going “OMG! THAT LITTLE POKE IS FASTER THAN DROB!??!?!!?!”
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I find it very hard
To imagine anyone faster than DRobb.
It's not just the pure speed from one of the court to the other.
It’s her quickness and change of pace.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't really trying to
Just having that frothing at the mouth wanting to tell you all how great DRob is thing.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally understand!
I am like that with all my faves.
No one but you and I have really had much to say about DRob this year.
Hey. Nowhere near you and Nate’s level; but, I did have some things to say about DRob. And I did jump into the discussion on the other thread that you mention above. I don’t believe any female basketball player is faster on the court than DRob. There is a good reason DRob’s softball coaches called her Roadrunner (Beep! Beep!). She was that much faster than everybody else. I would like to see a race between DRob and RiRi as you call her. Maybe while dribbling a basketball from one end of a regulation basketball court to the other? Maybe a straight up 40, 50, or 100 yard dash? My moneys still on DRob.
I'll try to find some college footage
They’re both fast as hell, not gonna let my OU distate cloud my judgement of that fact. But many a time, Andrea took it to D Rob in college. Many a time… #ReminiscesTheGoodOlDays ;)
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh but that might be hard for you...
…when the YouTube video titles are things like “OU Women Crush Cowgirls In Bedlam Season Finale”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq5XD5TUJig
:/
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh.
And BTW, I generally call her “Dre” actually. Some of her Shock teammies/coaches tweet her as RiRi, hence my use of that nickname :)
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
KP
As the resident Tulsa homer, along with having Lizzie on the 1st team (where I think she should be – I was not the C- giver, if you didn’t already guess), I’m glad to see Kayla on your honorable mention list. After a bad second half of the season, it pained me to see her numbers and play slip so drastically. And every time I mentioned a rookie to coach to get eplanations/insight on what was going on, I got the side eye. So here was my only outlet to brag on the players that I think Lizzie and KP will be in the league. I think they’re both marvelous and I hope they’ll both be back in Tulsa next year!
Jessica
didnt you think that was odd behavior from a coach – why not just say what the issue is? ie rookie wall. injury – rather than the “message”
by Almost there on Sep 14, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Any time I mentioned a rookie in the last month or so (including after Sunday’s game), it got awfully chilly.
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Its bewildering
Are you hearing anything yet about what’s going to happen next year? Changes in coaching staff etc.?
Nope. Not a whole lot.
I know someone (not me) cornered some owners in the elevator who said it would be an offseason evaluation/decision. I know someone also has a few of the owners leaning Teresa’s way. I personally haven’t heard much other than rumors here and there.
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But you will share them when you hear them?
Pretty please? :-)
Yes'm
as soon as/if I hear something y’all will know :)
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
team will look interesting
If they appoint Edwards. The shock wont survive it
by Almost there on Sep 14, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
As Cameron and Box
haven’t exactly lit it up in the decision department I guess it could happen. It is a shame when you have more money then sense!
by Almost there on Sep 14, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Times, they are a changin'
Rookies today aren’t the rookies of when T was still playing. Adjust with the times or get left behind, coach!
I bet she would have kept Candace Parker on the bench, too. ;)
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Becky didn't even get drafted
She would never have even made it to training camp to get cut. ;)
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
My point exactly!
I hate the way people are expecting genius from the very beginning. Most players take time.
Well yes, and no
I think T’s issue on some level is that she doesn’t expect brilliance from rookies and is refusing to see it and work with it.
I mean, really, the disparaging “that little rookie” comment about DRob who just blew her team up for 36 points was very telling to me.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
She said what now?
I missed that.
You’re right. I was conflating the general over the top expectations for WNBA rookies based on their college career with T’s rookie hostility. They’re clearly two different things. Thanks for calling me on it.
“Robinson played her little butt off. I wish I could have played and stopped that little rookie from scoring like that. I got tired of seeing a rookie score on us.” – Teresa Edwards on D Rob’s game Sunday
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ooooooooh I didn't see the 3rd part of that quote...
They left it out in most of the reports, the “I got tired of seeing a rookie score on us.” part.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Did anyone say "so why didn't you adjust your defense, coach?"
Because I would have. :P
I’m picking on Edwards a lot, I know. I do think she’s one of the most amazing players of all time. But being an amazing player doesn’t mean you know jack shit about coaching, actually.
She apparently got into it with Tara VanDerveer when Tara coached the ‘96 Olympic team. Tara’s 826-198. Edwards is 2-21. Not as easy as she thought, huh?
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There must be some issues with Edwards.
She was assistant coach in 2006. But not 2007. Or 2008. Or 2009. Or 2010. Can’t get a coaching job or doesn’t want a coaching job???
Haha
Can you do that? Adjust while the game is running. Stop press! Edwards has an ego you couldn’t jump over surely people have worked that out.
by Almost there on Sep 14, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
"Robinson played her butt off," Tulsa interim coach Teresa Edwards said. "I wish I could have stopped the little rookie from scoring like that."
So I misquoted a little. It was “THE little rookie”, not “THAT little rookie”. They’re both pretty dismissive IMO.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Or if Jessica is right, then it was "that"
W/e. Close enough. ;)
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
It's definitely that.
And I thought it was pretty dismissive too. Then some media laughed. I think that’s where it gets weird. The media encourages stuff like that, which I don’t like.
by Jessica Lantz on Sep 14, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Who's laughing now?
That little rookie and her not-as-little rookie teammate who are a big part of why their team is in the playoffs. That’s who’s laughing last.
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Go Silver Stars!!!
DRob is listed at 5’9" and 125 pounds. That sounds anemic. I sat on the front row and watched her play against the Lynx. And I stood beside her (and DA) at the meet and greet for Big 12 alums after that game. She appears tall and rangy both on the court and off (Just ask my 5’1" wife). If she really only weighs 125# then every bit of it is well-toned muscle. And I’m 6’4" (enough with the Mutt and Jeff jokes-we’ve heard them for over 40-years) and DA is every bit of 6’1" maybe even a fraction more.
I think DRob just has one of those metabolisms, besides being highly active
She always looks thinner by the end of the season than she does at the beginning of the season. Now playing nonstop she’s going to have to figure out how to not waste away. ;)
by Shannon Cotterell on Sep 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions

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