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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

How much does a win in women's college basketball cost?

One of the great complaints of followers of women's basketball is that it's a game of the haves and have-nots, and the haves own the casino.

It has now been nearly 24 years since a school not belonging to the half-dozen power conferences (ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big Twelve, Pac-12, SEC) has won a women's basketball national championship. How is a team like, say, Northern Arizona supposed to compete with teams like Tennessee or Connecticut, schools which have a massive amount of resources?

But as anyone who follows women's basketball for even a little while knows, big budgets do not necessarily lead to big wins. Take Illinois and Washington, two schools which should have decent budgets to compete but which somehow come up short in terms of winning. Take Texas, which undoubtedly has money to spend and has Gail Goestenkors to boot, but hasn't broken into the Big Twelve elite. You could then look at all the mid-major powerhouses like Wisconsin-Green Bay and Middle Tennessee, which must be short on money but still somehow yield great results on the court.

Star-divide

In other sports - baseball comes to mind - this leads to calculating something called the marginal cost per marginal win (MC/MW) as a means of evaluating decision-making. In professional sports, players have to be hired through the signing of contracts. There is a minimum amount of money that one must spend on each player because most agreements with player unions mandate a minimum of spending. Obviously, stars receive much more than the minimum amount.

So what is marginal cost? Marginal cost is the cost above the minimum cost for a team. Take the WNBA, for example. The Tulsa Shock (why are they such a great example?) could decide to trade all of their players for racks of used basketballs and sign an all-Rookie squad for 2012. This squad would be paid the minimum WNBA contract. The marginal cost of this imaginary all-rookie squad would be $0.

marginal cost for a team = (total salary - (number of players) x (minimum salary per player))

The MC for a team basically indicates how much money is being put into the team. The minimum has to be spent, anything above that is a decision by the owners regarding how to allocate resources. Some owners might not spend very much money beyond the minimum; the New York Yankees might spend zillions beyond the minimum. But the MC simply discounts that part of total team salary which ownership is required to spend and just considers it the cost of doing business, a cost that doesn't have much to do with winning games.

So if one were to take MC and divide it by total team wins, we could get some idea what benefits were reaped by spending cash beyond the minimum. If Team A goes $50,000 beyond the minimum salary and gets 15 total wins, and Team B goes $200,000 beyond the minimum salary and also gets 15 total wins, then Team A must be doing something right. (Or Team B is doing something wrong.)

Makes sense right? Almost. It turns out that there's one crucial element that we're missing. This is the idea of a marginal win.

Let's suppose you're running the Tulsa Shock. Suppose that after their lone exhibition game, the players all get septicemia from eating some bad burritos after the game and are out for the 2012 season. The WNBA says, "okay, we're going to hold you to these contracts but we will make the medical exception for your entire roster and allow you to sign 11 players at minimum salary so that you can field a team for 2012."

So what kind of players can the Shock get? The answer is "the players that no one wants". Every other roster is set, spring rosters have been culled and no one is going anywhere. However, there are a bunch of castoff players that Edwards could pick up off waivers. We'll call these players replacement players, or if you want to keep the terminology consistent, "marginal players".

The question then becomes "exactly how good is this group of marginal players?" After all, if we're discounting part of the team salary as "the cost of doing business", we might have to discount a certain number of wins as "the cost of playing basketball". This team might not be very good - it might be horrible, in fact - but it might win some games if not very many. There appears to be a small number of wins that even the worst teams can earn on their own. (Historically for the WNBA that number appears to be three WNBA wins.)

We subtract the wins that a team of marginal players would stumble into from the team's total season wins and call every win above those wins a marginal win.

marginal wins = total number of wins - (wins earned by a hypothetical squad of marginal players)


Marginal wins are the wins beyond those that a team of scrubs ought to be able to get. These wins represent real accomplishment.

We now determine the marginal cost per marginal win as MC divided by MW.

marginal cost per marginal win = (cost spent above minimum cost)/(wins earned beyond minimum wins).

With this fraction, we are looking at the real value teams get from spending money. How many extra wins beyond the minimum are those extra dollars beyond the minimum purchasing? With this tool, we have a way to determine how effective a team is at spending money. One could even create an imaginary graph with marginal costs on one axis and marginal wins on the other and categorize those low spending but high performing teams.

This kind of analysis can be done in every sport except the WNBA, which treats player salaries like they're nuclear launch codes. With the WNBA, we are missing the total amount spent for our calculation of the formula. (The marginal cost would just be the CBA minimum.) Maybe we'll have better luck with women's college basketball.

In order to find MC/MW for any sport, we need four items:

a) the total amount spent for each team
b) the total amount of wins each team earned
c) the minimum cost for each player
d) the average expected wins for a team in the sport composed of marginal players

With the new WBBState.com website, we now have Part A - the total amount of the athletic budget for each of the teams in women's college basketball. We don't know where WBBState.com is getting its information, but part of this exercise shall be to assume that it's accurate.

Part B is also easy to get. No problem there.

Part C is a little difficult. What is the minimum cost for a Division I women's college basketball player? One might say "it's the cost of the player's scholarship". However, we don't know if that cost counts against the total budget in Part A, so we shall assume without grounds that it's taken care of by the university and costs the athletic budget nothing.

"Aha!" you might say. "I'll grant you that, but surely all those phone calls and home visits and illegal shoes must cost something. The minimum cost for each player has to be the minimum cost of recruiting a player. Isn't that what college basketball is about? Recruiting?"

Okay, let's perform a thought exercise. I'm a college coach and I wish to recruit a replacement player for Big State. The theory above states that there's a pile of replacement players out there that can't get on with a Division I squad and are there for the taking.

BRRRRING!

Replacement player: "Hello?"
Me: "Hi, I'm head coach at Big State. We need a replacement player. Are you interested? It comes with a full scholarship."
Replacement player: "Sure!"
Me: "Fine. Fax the NLI over to our office Welcome aboard."

CLICK.

Total minimum cost of recruiting a replacement player: the cost of a phone call and some toner ink for your fax machine. The minimum cost of recruiting is approximately $0.00. And now, if you don't mind me, I'm taking my wife and part of my recruiting budget and going to Cancun.

Note that I've performed some slight-of-hand here. The magic trick is in realizing that the concept of a replacement player *does not exist* in women's college basketball. If MaChelle Joseph of Georgia Tech loses a player, that conversation above will never take place. The NCAA won't allow it. Joseph will just have to deal with having one less player on her team for the season. Even so, the idea of a replacement player is a useful one and we'll keep it. We shall hand-wave away scholarships and the idea of minimum recruiting cost and claim (without proof) that the school's budget for women's basketball is in effect the allocated "salary" of our women's basketball team.

The part which is missing is Part D: if there were such people as replacement players in women's Division I basketball, how many wins would a team composed entirely of these players get? We'll have to do some guessing. Let's say that a women's basketball team has 13 players on it. Each player has a differing level of value. Some of the players are players like Skylar Diggins or Brittney Griner who are obviously not replacement-level by any sense of the term - if Brittney Griner gets hurt there probably wouldn't be a player that could replace her even if Kim Mulkey was able to offer a scholarship.

Take UConn's starting five. Not a replacement player in a bunch. Starters - for the most part - are not replacement players. For most decent teams, starters have value.

Likewise, for decent teams, the sixth woman has value above the average player. I'd claim that on an average team, players #7 and #8 have a level above replacement.

The problem concerns the players riding the tail end of the bench. On any team - even a Notre Dame or a Texas A&M or a Baylor - there are players stuck at the bottom of the roster that barely see any minutes. (Some coaches call them "20-20-20" players - they only see time when you're 20 points ahead, 20 points behind, or if there's 20 seconds left in the game.) If these players aren't replacement level, they might as well be. You could certainly replace them with other players, because the players at the end of the bench are seen so infrequently that replacing them wouldn't impact the team.

So where does replacement level begin on an average team? The #9 spot in the rotation. The #13 spot? Where?

I'm splitting the difference and claiming that #11 is the replacement level spot on a college roster. What could a team of players that were the #11 players from various college rosters be like? How many wins would it get.

Let's take the 343 or so Division I teams and split them into 13 groups of about 25 or 26 teams each. We'll look at the teams that make up group #11 from the top and see what the average number of wins for that group was. I used the values from RealTimeRPI.com from 2007 to 2011. The average number of wins associated with the #11 cluster (out of 13 total clusters) is slightly above nine (9).

Therefore, we claim that nine wins is the number of wins from a group of marginal players. It seems very high, particular since the difference in quality between the best college team and the worst is much greater than the difference between the best pro team and the worst, and we've already assigned three wins as the marginal number of wins for an WNBA team. However, if you think about it, nine wins makes sense because most of the teams at this level come from weak conferences who play teams from either their own weak conference or teams from other weak conferences. The rule becomes "you ought to be able to add enough cupcakes to your diet of teams to get nine wins no matter how bad you are."

So given the above, which teams paid the least for their wins? And which teams paid the most for them? (Note that wbbstate.com doesn't have information on some schools, like the service academies.)

Leaders in Marginal Cost Per Marginal Win - NCAA Division I

Team Marginal Cost Marginal Wins MC/MW
Chicago State 559,000 15 37,000
Florida Gulf Coast 802,000 19 42,000
Southern 479,000 11 44,000
Princeton 666,000 15 44,000
Northern Iowa 920,000 18 51,000
Hampton 842,000 16 53,000
Bowling Green 1,022,000 19 54,000
Gardner-Webb 799,000 14 57,000
Appalachian State 938,000 16 59,000
Central Arkansas 705,000 12 59,000

Let's now limit the list to only teams from power conferences.

Team Marginal Cost Marginal Wins MC/MW
Stanford 2,699,000 23 117,000
UCLA 2,254,000 19 119,000
DePaul 2,606,000 20 130,000
North Carolina 2,876,000 19 151,000
Miami (Fla.) 2,919,000 19 154,000
Southern California 2,320,000 15 155,000
Duke 3,661,000 23 159,000
Michigan State 3,177,000 18 177,000
Notre Dame 3,888,000 22 177,000
Georgetown 2,671,000 15

178,000

All of these teams have something in common - they don't have much of a budget (Tennessee and UConn supposedly have budgets of over $5 million) but they won a lot of games. It just goes to show you how valuable Tara VanDerVeer is to Stanford, making miracles happen with the Stanford budget.

(* * *)

So which power conference teams got the least bang for the buck? The big losers are those who finished the season with nine or fewer wins - basically, these teams had zero marginal wins and a team of scrubs would have done just as well. The MC/MW value is basically undefined or negative.

Team Marginal Cost Marginal Wins MC/MW
Seton Hall 2,653,000 -1
Indiana 2,564,000 0
Illinois 2,235,000 0
Cincinnati 2,150,000 0
Oregon State 1,487,000 0
Clemson 2,488,000 1 2,488,000
Mississippi 2,317,000 1 2,317,000
Virginia Tech 2,599,000 2 1,299,000
Washington 2,449,000 2 1,225,000
Minnesota 2,746,000 3 915,000

There's an old saying that the most expensive army is the one that is the second-strongest. In this case, the most expensive Division I teams are the ones that can't get nine wins.

Do these numbers prove anything?

The problem is in obtaining accurate information upon which to base the concepts of marginal costs and marginal wins. We've had to make a lot of guesses and assumptions; the reader is left with the exercise of picking away at those. Maybe someday, a team of crack reporters will get the accurate numbers we need; sadly, that day is not today.

Comment 47 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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For the non automatic-BCS leagues,

there are some leagues stronger than others, most notably the Atlantic 10 and the Mountain West where teams like the Xavier Musketeers, GW Colonials, and the TCU Horned Frogs have been decent, if not nationally ranked over the long haul. In the A-10 especially, most schools there are not in FBS football (except Temple) nor even FCS, nor do they want to be, so therefore, the athletic budgets will be put toward the hoops teams, esp. a place like St. Joe’s and Xavier among others.

That said, it’s gonna be a lot harder for women’s teams outside the Big Six to get top recruits because:
1. non-Big Six gets less coverage than Big Six (though A-10, CUSA and MWC gets good coverage nationally because of the marquee teams)
2. womens ball gets less coverage than men. So the Richmond women’s team is going to get less TV than the men, even if the women’s team is better than the men’s team relatively speaking, but right now, the men’s team is definitely better.

Any non-big Six women’s team that wants any hope of a national championship needs a perfect storm of these things.
1. Great coach who knows how to augment roster’s strengths and downplay weaknesses
2. There must be a generational player there. For example, Delaware has Elena Delle Donne. ODU had Ticha a long time ago.
3. The players around the talent still have to be good and easily motivated to do better because of the top talent on the team.
4. Hate to say it, but you need a lucky bounce in the dance where some more talented teams lose earlier than desired.

Those are the big elements I see.

And some leagues are

by thewiz06 on Dec 13, 2011 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

Emphasis on "perfect" in "perfect storm".

There’s just so much against a non-power conference winning a championship. I’d say the biggest issue is the quality of non-contending teams in the non-power conference’s own conference. Xavier might be great, but a season competing against Saint Louis and Rhode Island and Fordham isn’t going to prepare you for the NCAA.

by James Bowman on Dec 13, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I wonder if Geno and Pat engender a bit of an exception.

I know in Summitt’s case that a lot of her salary is justified by the revenue she brings in rather than the wins. I.e. if her salary were a tenth of what it is, she wouldn’t coach any differently, so that remaining 90% could theoretically be payment for her name brand rather than her on-court success. The two are obviously related, but they’re not the same thing.

And that made me think of another possible step: marginal return on victories. How much did a school bring in on account of a win? Tennessee and UConn might not get a lot of bang-for-buck on the MC/MV scale, but they sure do when you look at the inward cash flow.

With that, you could then get a marginal ROI: how much, on margin, does a school bring in per win compared to its expenditure per win?

by David Hooper on Dec 13, 2011 1:14 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting comments.

The part of the equation that we don’t know is how much revenue either program brings in. Tennessee and UConn might be part of a handful of programs that are in the black, and if so, it might illustrate a theory that applies to college football – any surplus is simply reinvested in the program, in this case, Pat and Geno’s salaries.

I think for a lot of schools – 95 percent or so, being optimistic – the marginal ROI would actually be a negative number.

Someday, we’ll have this data on cash flows.

The whole MC/MW idea brings up a point that might be heresy to the followers of the Orange and the Blue – could Tenn or UConn get someone cheaper and get the same results?(Then again, the argument would be that you should never pay a women’s coach that much unless they could get you to the Final Four ever year – but Pat and Geno can definitely get you there and could claim that their salary is justified.)

by James Bowman on Dec 13, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Could they get somebody cheaper? Yes.

Both Pat and Geno built their programs to the top level, and then got paid like it. (Pat more so, but there are a lot of reasons behind that, starting with that whole grad-assistant-as-head-coach thing. It’s not anything that can be used to judge between them.)

I guess my main question was whether their high market value skewed Tennessee and UConn off the MC/MW scale. But because so many other programs can’t operate like them, it does make women’s college basketball one of the very few places where you can see the full effect of a coach’s talent when some midmajors fare better than others in apparently equal conditions.

by David Hooper on Dec 13, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

The Stanford expenses may be understated. They have some rich fan who

pays Van Derveers salary. That could show up in revenue and expenses or it might just be taken off the books completely.

The question I have is what do some of these schools do with an extra million, two million, three million, four million dollars that some other schools aren’t spending? Case in point – Tennesee annual expenses of 5.9 million. In the same conference Missisippi State has annual expenses of 1.9 million. Where does the 4 million go for Tennessee?

Or, put another way, what would Tara Vanderveer do if she got another million? She is already spending over a million dollars more than neighbors (but different conferences – maybe the Pac 12 requires more money) St. Marys, Santa Clara, San Jose State and USF. Although it is only a 100,000 more than Cal.

I don’t think any of the student/athletes get paid other than room and board, but maybe that’s not correct.

by ttdomi on Dec 14, 2011 4:17 AM EST reply actions  

My first theory is that Tennessee spends a lot more effort promoting itself than Mississippi State does. If Tennessee wants to travel to Rutgers, Stanford, et. al. in a world tour before the start of the regular season, the athletic department might pay for it. Mississippi State’s athletic department might not. Furthermore, I’d expect a similar gap between both schools in men’s football.

It’s a first attempt at a theory, and has the advantage in that it might be easy to disprove.

by James Bowman on Dec 14, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Tara VanDerveer's salary is paid by an endowment to the university.

It’s not paid to her directly by the fan, so it’s not off the books any more than any other booster contribution to any other program.

"I'm just playing [a center] on TV" ~Taj McWilliams-Franklin

by Shannon Cotterell on Dec 15, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

More specifically re: Stanford finances

http://facts.stanford.edu/finances.html

Stanford’s $16.5 billion endowment (as of Aug. 31, 2011) provides an enduring source of financial support for fulfillment of the university’s mission of teaching, learning and research. About 75 percent of the endowment is designated by donors for a specific purpose. There are nearly 7,000 endowed university funds.

Each year, a portion of investment return from the endowment is used to support annual operating expenses. The remainder of the return is reinvested in the endowment to maintain its value over time.

So basically what happened is a rich donor gave a chunk of money to Stanford with the specific direction that it be used to fund the position of women’s head basketball coach. Stanford invested the money, and then pays the coach (currently Tara) in part from the interest earned.

"I'm just playing [a center] on TV" ~Taj McWilliams-Franklin

by Shannon Cotterell on Dec 15, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

So if it the earnings from her contribution may not pay all of

the WBB coaches salary, I wonder if there is a percentage that must be met in order for her name to be associated with the position?

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean, it’s not like the donor has any control over how Stanford manages the funds after she donated them.

"I'm just playing [a center] on TV" ~Taj McWilliams-Franklin

by Shannon Cotterell on Dec 16, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Top 10 colleges in womens basketball expenditures for 2010

1) Tennesee
2) Connecticut 5,244,403
3) Baylor 4,940,532
4) Texas 4,877,921
5) Vanderbilt 4,680,429
6) Virginia 4,617,515
7) Arizona State 4,550,041
8) Texas A&M 4,374,121
9) Oklahoma 4,317,979
10) Auburn 4,279,158

by ttdomi on Dec 14, 2011 4:34 AM EST reply actions  

I can't confirm, but Vandy at #5 is believable.

There’s a lot of alumni interest in their program due to the inherent rivalry with Tennessee. But Vandy’s figures might be screwy in a different sense: they don’t have an athletic department, so the reporting of things like parking receipts returned to the university might show up differently. I wouldn’t think it would matter, but it might.

Virginia’s also a relatively rich alum school with a long tradition for women’s bball. They’ve been down-ish recently, but still take it very seriously.

by David Hooper on Dec 14, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with UVA up there

and Coach Ryan prob got a nice fat paycheck due to her longetivity in Charlottesville.

by thewiz06 on Dec 15, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Hooray 20th century Texas politics!

They and the other tiny religious schools (e.g. TCU, SMU) have some mighty deep pockets to draw from.

by David Hooper on Dec 15, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

How are you guys using tiny?

Baylor, SMU and TCU all have more students than Stanford.

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, make that more undergraduates than Stanford. When you

add in post-graduate students Stanford does pass them in total students.
Stanford 6,878 + 8,441 = 15,319
Baylor 12,428 + 2,620 = 15,028
SMU 7,000 + 5,000 = 12,000
TCU 8229 + 929= 9158

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Like Stanford and other private institutions, they do not rely on government subsidies the way public schools do.

Really, a better measure is the funding stream rather than the total student count, in which case those four schools aren’t tiny at all.

But all four of them owe their status to very wealthy and/or influential founders and boosters. For religious schools, the Texas ones have particularly strong political ties in their history, and Baylor would very likely be just another in the sea of generic schools if it weren’t for Ann Richards and her lobbying to get them into the Big 12. Even now, Baylor is one of the Big 12 schools that no other conference seems to want for realignment, which is why they’re so keen on keeping the Big 12 together. (That’s particularly interesting given their recent football success.)

Interesting, though, that Stanford has more grad students than TCU or SMU has undergrads.

by David Hooper on Dec 15, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

On a more serious note,

Stanford has more grads than undergrads because of the heavily research-intensive nature of the university. Nearly all top Ivy League and quasi Ivies have graduate enrollments larger than undergrad enrollments due to research and the strength of its graduate degrees.

Stanford has a top ranked business school, and law school among many other things.

by thewiz06 on Dec 15, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

MIT used to be grad students only. I’m not really sure they should have changed that, honestly. But that’s getting waaaay off topic.

by David Hooper on Dec 15, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder why the Ivy league schools never got into sports the

way Stanford and Vanderbilt have? They certainly have a lot of rich alumni – particularly Yale and Harvard – who could contribute money into athletic programs the way Stanford and Vanderbilt alum do. Maybe they feel that having a big hot athletics program would diminish their academic status??

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re Yale & Harvard

College athletics are really not of much interest to the region, save a few exceptions (Beanpot hockey, UConn women). I don’t think it has anything to do with whether or not they have money to pour into athletics, it’s whether they have desire.

by Jessica Lantz on Dec 15, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

But compare Harvard with neighbor Boston College

BC 2,823,754 (7th in ACC, 38th in country)
Harvard 592,509 (5th in Ivy League, 309th in country)

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the Ivy league must be the lowest spending conference:

Columbia 680,587 (299th in country)
Yale 674,215 (300th in country)
Princeton 666,161 (302nd in country)
Dartmouth 601,706 (307th in country)
Harvard 592,509 (309th in country)
Cornell 584,583 (310th in country)
Pennsylvania 541,873 (316th in country)
Brown 516,771 (320th in country)

Talk about putting academics before athletics.

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s what those students pay for. Academic excellence, not athletic achievements. If the athletics departments spent more money, would it even result in more revenue or even championships? Highly doubtful.

by Jessica Lantz on Dec 15, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Makes you rethink these "Harvard of the xxx" titles.

Like the claim that Vanderbilt is the Harvard of the South
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Harvard%20of%20the%20South

But you would never believe who the Urban Dictionary credits as the “Harvard of the West”. I probably shouldn’t even reveal it and will likely regret it:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Harvard+of+the+west

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

“Anything that’s the something of something isn’t the anything of anything.”

— Lisa Simpson

by James Bowman on Dec 16, 2011 8:59 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Good line for when you are talking to an OU person

re WBB games:

Baylor 4,940,532
Texas 4,877,921
Texas A&M 4,374,121
Oklahoma 4,317,979
Kansas 3,977,623
Texas Tech 3,041,108
Iowa State 2,959,850
Kansas State 2,628,193
Missouri 2,291,280
Oklahoma State 2,231,156

“We prefer to put our money into academic excellence, not athletic excellence.”

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You probably already know this but I thought

it was interesting that Tulsa beat Oklahoma in the NCAA women’s volleyball tournament this year 3-1.

by ttdomi on Dec 15, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

This is pretty close to spot on.

Harvard and Yale have such strong academic traditions (read: money) that it actually ends up fulfilling the function that athletics do at most other universities (read: maintain alumni loyalty for future donations). While Generic State U. relies on the tribalism developed through fans of college athletics, Harvard and Yale rely on their academic tribalism. Stanford could have done the same thing, but the California culture allowed them to take advantage of both (though prior to Harbaugh’s revitalization of football, their athletic finances were very shaky).

For all universities like to make of academics, traditions, and whatever enlightened fancies, it’s the raw tribalism of sports that keeps most alumni interested in the schools to the point of donating thousands or millions of dollars on a regular basis.

by David Hooper on Dec 15, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The Ivies are so good academically with their colleges and to the point

that they don’t need a good athletics program to spike up applications.

You could argue that some true quasi-ivies like Duke and Northwestern may not have the academic reputations that they do now if they didn’t play in the ACC and Big Ten. The Duke basketball team in particular over the last 20 years is certainly a great recruiting tool to lure students who would otherwise consider the likes of UPenn and Princeton.

The role of most public universities is to provide bachelors degrees, even though the flagship universities in states have considerable graduate enrollments. Big time college sports helps most if not all of them increase their national profiles and puts these universities in the spotlight more than they otherwise would because the Ivy League (athletics aside) can market themselves without any college sports. No doubt that Virginia Tech and Penn State have improved a lot academically over the last 20 years (if not more) because of the exposure of their football programs which lure more applicants, a better student pool to pick from, and sports may even give the school more exposure academically so they may get more graduate research opportunities that they otherwise may lose to the Ivies.

Among Public Ivies (US News lists Michigan, Berkeley, UVA, UCLA, UNC, William and Mary, GT, Illinois, Wisconsin, Washington, UCI, UCSD, UCSB as “Top 10”), all of these schools except William and Mary and the UC’s not named UCLA or Berkeley are in automatic BCS leagues, and I would say that without that status in a league, they may not have the same luster with college students at least. Then again, we need to note that Berkeley and Michigan graduate degrees are as prestigious as any Ivy League school because they’ve been top degrees even before college sports became the way they are today, and that’s fact, not because Nate went to Michigan.

by thewiz06 on Dec 15, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

My alma mater: "Public Ivy"

THAT’S RIGHT!!! WHO’S BAD!?!?! ZOT!!! flexes

Ahem.

UCI moves in and out of the top 10 public universities in the US in most rankings (in terms of academics) year to year. It’s been consistently in the top 15 since I went there (over 20 years ago).

But UCI sports? We don’t usually have a lot to talk about there. UCI is already a non-football school, and funding for other programs is by all accounts pretty dismal.

"I'm just playing [a center] on TV" ~Taj McWilliams-Franklin

by Shannon Cotterell on Dec 16, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Big West Conference 2010 WBB expenses:

UC Santa Barbara – $1,493,248 – #111
Pacific – $1,416,516 – #122
UC Riverside – $1,113,235 – #187
UC Irvine – $1,069,071 – #202
Cal Poly San Luis Obispo – $994,539 – #227
Long Beach State – $979,457 – #232
UC Davis – $979,321 – #233
Cal State Fullerton – $762,871 – #284
Cal State Northridge – $740,772 – #290

by ttdomi on Dec 16, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

w-wow :D

Waffles, Digimon, SETOGUCHI

STALOCK GET A ROBOT LEG OR SOMETHING AND COME BACK~WE NEED SOME LOCK STOCK STALOCK HERE!!

Like manga, sci fi, webcomics, and Metaphorical Bazookas? Check out http://firework.the-comic.org!

by YeahTommyB4ZGermansGetThere on Dec 17, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

The Ivy League is one of the lowest spending conferences

because one of the assumptions James made was wrong. The cost of athletic scholarships is typically billed to the athletic department, not the university. And in almost all cases the cost ot he athletic scholarships are included in the program costs that James used for his calculations.

The Ivy league does not have athletic scholarships. If they did given the tuition prices, most of those schools would see their budgets basically doubled.

by Scotter on Dec 18, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I got halfway through this.

I’ll try to re-read it later because I am interested in the revenue/salary issues of womens’ basketball. Can you do another post about the difference between the wnba and the overseas leagues that are played in the rest of the year in terms of salary and revenue?

Also I bought a Kelsey Griffin replica jersey. First pro jersey of my life.

Waffles, Digimon, SETOGUCHI

STALOCK GET A ROBOT LEG OR SOMETHING AND COME BACK~WE NEED SOME LOCK STOCK STALOCK HERE!!

Like manga, sci fi, webcomics, and Metaphorical Bazookas? Check out http://firework.the-comic.org!

by YeahTommyB4ZGermansGetThere on Dec 14, 2011 4:05 PM EST reply actions  

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