Looking at the Kristi Toliver Trade
The 2009 WNBA Rookie Class has now seen the #3 and #4 overall picks traded. Renee Montgomery, the #4 pick, was in a trade that was considered "reasonable" at the time; packaged with eventual #1 choice Tina Charles for All-Star guard Lindsay Whalen. Most considered it a fair value trade.
The #3 choice, Kristi Toliver, was traded by the Chicago Sky yesterday to the Los Angeles Sparks for a 2011 second-round draft choice. The same fans that considered the Montgomery trade reasonable, are stunned that Toliver was "given away" for a draft choice that frequently doesn't make the team. But was she really?
To assess the trade properly, you have to begin on September 4, 2009, when after a Sky victory over the Washington Mystics, Toliver was interviewed by Joseph Phillips of SC Media in Chicago (http://www.examiner.com/x-29132-Chicago-Sky-Examiner~y2009m11d11-Kristi-Toliver-talks-candidly-about-her-playing-time) and the interview included the following:
Joseph Phillips: Kristi, you had 25 points in a game [on August 28th versus the New York Liberty] and then we don't see you. What happened?
Kristi Toliver: Your guess is as good as mine.
Other comments included "It's not like at college where I chose to go to [the University of] Maryland, they chose me to come here" and when asked if "fences could be mended" between her and Coach Key, "I don't know. We'll see what happens in the next three games and what happens in the in off-season. I want to play."
This was in a public forum. This was not a complaint brought to the coaching staff or management of the team. It was a rookie complaining about her role to the press. It needs to be pointed out again here, that this is a player completing her first year in the league, not a seasoned veteran. This is someone who was behind two veteran guards...one an All Star (Jia Perkins) and one that was brought in to be a solid vet on a young team (Dominique Canty). She was also sharing bench time with the 2007 Rookie of the Year (Armintie Price) and two more experienced guards, Erin Thorn and KB Sharp. So Toliver, in other words, was not being benched for an undrafted free agent who had not proved themselves either.
Now, let's look at the games that Toliver did not play much, or at all in. Opponents included Seattle, Detroit, Los Angeles, Connecticut and Sacramento. Each of these teams press the opponents' guards or have strong, physical point guards of their own. Toliver has neither been known for her defense, nor her ball handling. She is a shooting point guard. But if you can't stop the other team's point guard, or you can't get the ball up vs. the press, you aren't going to get your shot off either. The teams with less defensively aggressive or smaller guards, like San Antonio and Phoenix were teams Toliver played more minutes against.
Skip to the off-season. The Sky have the #4 draft choice, and Epiphanny Prince is available. She has been playing PG overseas, she is a scoring weapon, and has played defense under C. Vivian Stringer's system. A logical choice to add to the team, especially with the trades made in the offseason that brought more shooters to the team. So now you have Canty, Perkins and Prince, and Toliver -- who was already complaining about playing time as a rookie -- which you know did not win her many friends in Sky management.
Sometimes, there is addition by subtraction. Kristi Toliver may go to LA, who has a pass first PG in Ticha Penichiero and become a scoring second option. She may thrive playing among Ticha and Betty Lennox. That doesn't mean the trade was a bad one. Chicago may thrive with the guard rotation they now have in place, plus the revamped front line of Fowles/Christon/Kraayeveld. The bottom line is that this trade might be a win-win for the Sky and the second year player looking for an opportunity.
We'll know the results, maybe, come September.
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Prince v. Toliver?
While Toliver may not be a PG (that’s up for debate for most people), Prince is even less so. She was a SG in Turkey with a negative A/TO ratio, took 7 shots for every assist made, and did not rank in the Top 20 in the TBBL in assists (when non-PGs like Tamika Catchings, Matee Ajavon, Shavonte Zellous, Penny Taylor, Vickie Johnson, and Barb Turner, did). Her teammate led that league in assists by a wide margin. So if Chicago’s trying to play Prince off as a PG, they’re going to be royally disappointed. Surely they watched her on tape over there, right? Five minutes a game on the ball here and there does not a pro PG make.
Prince is, however, a better all-around player than Toliver. That’s probably why they drafted her and traded away last year’s pick. Prince is better at driving to the basket/drawing fouls and playing defense than Toliver, both traits you’d want your professional lead guard to have. Of course, much of that has to do with Prince’s body build and upper body strength, two things that Toliver also lacks.
That’s not to say that Toliver won’t find success at her new stop. The Sparks were just awful from 3-point range last season while she was the WNBA’s top 3-point shooter by percentage. She could play alongside Ticha Penicheiro or Noelle Quinn in some rotations because of their size. But if she’s expecting to start alongside either, she’s doing herself a major disservice.
Top 3p shooter?
Is Toliver’s second name Tangela Smith?
just checkin
Thanks for the comments, I appreciate your taking the time. I think the jury is out on Piph at Point. She did handle the ball a lot at RU (granted that doesn’t make her a PG), but she did play a lot of it in Russia/Turkey.
I think Detroit with Smith and Nolan proved that two capable ball handlers can thrive in the W right now. Piph and Jia may be able to do that kind of thing if needed. Don’t forget Jia played point two years ago when Canty was injured.
I think in LA, alongside Ticha, so she can play some 2, I think Toliver will do well.
If nothing else, we’ve added more intrigue to the season, right?
I suppose Chicago can try that
Jia is probably a better ballhandler than people are willing to accept. But I’m telling you—Prince did not play “a lot” of point this past offseason. She was the SG—both in Russia and in Turkey. I’m not basing this on numbers. I’m basing this on games watched. We’re talking five minutes MAX on most games and only when the starting PG sat (and that wasn’t all that often) and the back-up PG got hurt (sometime in March). If the Sky did not bother to watch Piph play, then they are in serious trouble if something happens to Canty/Perkins.
That said, I’ll focus on the positive and will be satisfied that they acquired another talented player who is a better fit for the system.
Key said in an interview that Prince went overseas and learned how to be a point guard. She had six turnovers and two assists today. I guess we’ll see, but I’m skeptical, to say the least.
Key couldn't have watched her play in Turkey, then
Because in the games I saw (especially against the good teams like Fenerbahce and Galatasaray), Prince wasn’t the PG. Sharnee Zoll was (and led that league in assists). Prince wasn’t the PG in Russia. Edwige Lawson-Wade and Kelly Miller were while she was there. So when did Prince actually play point? In practice? We talkin’ ’bout practice!
One thing I’ll say about Prince, though. She will put in work on defense. I can somewhat forgive those six turnovers since she did have five steals.
by just checkin on May 15, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I know we aint gonna sit up in this thread and talk about practice...
Not a game..
Not a game…
Practice..
What are we really talkin about here?
(Classic.)
SwishAppeal.com, women's basketball...covered SBN-style... twitter: @qmccall3
by Nate Parham on May 16, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
My two cents
just checkin: completely agree on Toliver next to Penicheiro/Quinn. In fact, there may not be a better fit — two guards who are bigger and can defend and Toliver can focus on setting herself up for scoring opportunities while be a small two guard that can pass. My only question mark is about the Sparks guard rotation: it seems to me like they have 5 1&2 guards, none of which can (effectively) swing to the 3. I have not yet seen Riley and obviously they couldn’t turn down a Toliver for 2nd rounder offer, but will be interesting to see how that shakes out. Given that both Riley and Toliver are unproven, I’m not sure if we can call it a logjam…but interesting.
On Chicago: while I’m surprised that they couldn’t get more in return for Toliver, I think Dishin is right about the fact that their rotation WAS crowded. Something had to give. The combination of Perkins, Canty, and Prince should be able to handle running the offense… but I have seen much less of Prince than some others. It’s also worth noting that Christon is a much much better ball handler than Wyckoff…not that either will be responsible for running the offense, but it should add to the strength of the team.
SwishAppeal.com, women's basketball...covered SBN-style... twitter: @qmccall3
getting more
Dealing with the Sparks is a sure way to get beat on a trade. Penny Toler gets the best of it the great majority of the time.
Some of us need those connections
And Lilley did get that. However, she was considered a long shot at best to actually make the team. And, after a rough start, she did just that. She beat out some pretty good players to secure her spot.
by just checkin on May 15, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions

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